Here is my question, I don't trust that my manager will fight for me to get me to 63 for the following reasons:- The area I own is not big enough for a 63 but at the same time there is not other areas he can give to me given where we are as a team without taking away from my peers, something he would not want to do unless there is a big problem with a peer not delivering which is not the case.- Innovation - this leaves me with trying to come up with other areas that the team can focus on in addition to current goals to leap frog us and which I can own; so far even though some of my ideas are really good (according to the mgr) the timing is off (ie the team has not reached that level yet where my ideas would be practical to implement given the big ROI)In short I can't trust that this mgr will get me to 63 in a time frame that I would like to see it happen (provided that I nail the qualities you highlight for a 63) which leaves me with the following choices:-Sticking around and continue working on displaying 63 qualities until the above points change, and who knows how long that will take- leave for another team internally (which means a bit of time to establish myself again etc) but at the same it would give me more clear timeline of when I can say I am 100% delivering as a 63.-get external offers (eg from Google), bring it up with the mgr and thereby force a change (more responsibility) since leaving would hurt the team in at least the short term. People who get stuck at the plateau are often referred to as disillusioned learners. If there is a perception of unfairness, then those who think that they have been treated unfairly will rapidly lose their motivation. Director can be just principal in sales or marketing. This is usually how teams start to rot from the inside. Therefore, our need for people who can collaborate across their own team, across disciplines, across org boundaries is greater than ever before. 4. How do you ensure there is no conflict of interest. Don't just take a L63+ role because of the level. then you're really off in the weeds.Think of the guy in the other company, the guy who is building something that competes with you, with your team. I spend a lot of my time these days working with partner teams to help them solve their own problems or create wins for their teams even if it only peripherally touches my area. Only one can emerge, and not everyone can be a senior simultaneously. an ex-manager used to tell me, if the org needs him to sweep the floor, he would ensure that he would be the best sweeper in the world (no offense to my janitor friends, just an expression). A mistake was a huge cost. It's a matter of human nature for most people not to want someone else to pass them up. Will some new person to the team who shows high growth potential push you aside even though you've been doing really solid work for years?Sometimes I wish it worked like an experience bar in a video game where you can clearly see when you will "ding". If you're off-path, you can turn it around. You may not need them to get from 59->60, but if you're good at them, it'll make your rise much quicker. Know when your market worth changes with our verified salaries newsletter, See exactly how much your competitors pay. Great and timely post - thank you Mini! "haven't seen nothing yet" is a fairly common construction. Never "threaten" to leave or waive external offers in my face unless you're fully prepared to be escorted out of the building that minute. So here's my 2 cents:Read this now and have a game plan for your 1:1s to tee up a deeper discussion at MYCD. What worked for me was to go to my manager and say: "I would like to stay here, at Microsoft, working for you. Ive seen many people who didnt quite fit at MS go off and be very successful at other companies, starting their own biz, changing careers, by finding a better fit for themselves. When I finally figured out how to play well with others and was able to show some major cross-group gains in addition to my own leet prod dev skills, that's when I became a 63.63 to 64 was a bit of a slog -- I'd say more like a full-frontal assault on lazy management, actually :). It's what you can offer, not what you want out of it that most teams are looking for. Oldest and (still) best advice I've gotten is move around a lot; no two teams' cultures or needs are the same, so you have something to offer wherever you look. That didnt happen by chance alone. Things get thrown your way and you knock each and everyone of the challenges out of the park. you want to complete A and A requires 10 devs. Your own work is part of the goal. Nothing you do is good, all you get is criticism. Microsoft is so unique (and not in a good way) that you need to have blogs like this and focus on managing your career inside the hobbesian nightmare, rather than making good and cool software. If I was 65/66 material, why did they wait until I gave notice to offer me the promotion? Know Your Worth. VP has to find the 10 devs from some other less attractive project. Really inspiring. Learn How to State Your Case and Earn Your Raise, Climb the Ladder With These Proven Promotion Tips, A Guide to Negotiating the Salary You Deserve, How to Prepare for Your Interview and Land the Job. However, the results show that the vast majority of dev/test/pm will make level 63 and in a reasonable timeframe. And I appreciate you screening out the non-productive whining posts. What now? Mini -- you left out the most important option, which I took. I think you should play some games while searching for you L63 promotions. The Goldstars have already been canceled for this quarter.Next, I believe this post will most likely be useful for those who entered MS as intern/college hires. Or at least, more transparent feedback was communicated so you had a real idea of where your career was heading. Directors are usually senior principals (level 66, 67) or at Partner level. Lots of terrible mid level managers at MS. To the person from MCS who said it was easy to get to 64 in MCS - MCSinTheFieldI agree with you there, you can get to a L64 in MCS but try to ever transfer to another org as a L64. Amy Hood. I'd like to hear some more experiences from MCS. After all, if you think you are already ready, and your manager doesn't, there is probably some way you can improve that you don't understand -- this is something you want to figure out.6. It makes a difference in your relationship. If you have your mnanager in your pocket, you cna achieve greate heights in life. However, I think this is the first point where we see a non-trivial number of folks plateau. I've also worked for great managers, and worked with great people on my team. If you job simply doesn't scale to that next level - and many don't / can't - then you need to build rapport with your manager to have a focused career discussion about what roles are around to get you there and how you could land in one.2. Many 62s (and 63s) make substantially more than 64s. Don't discount the power of a mgmt chain that believes in you. It inspired me to write the following dissertation on the subject in hopes that it will be helpful. Senior finance leader with several years of experience as a member of executive teams within large Australian blue chip and global multi-national companies with broad and diverse background and wide-ranging experience. No manager can bail you out of "bad brand jail" past L625. At Microsoft, the levels start at 59 and go beyond 80. Senior->principal->partner are the level bands, 63/64->65/66/67, 68/69/70. The reason why they were 65's are:1. I've been at Microsoft six years.I've never spent one second honestly thinking about my career or how to get a promotion or anything like that. The Job titles for this position are: Software Development Engineer SDE You've made 3 mistakes. Don't waste it. Answer to second question is never ever explicitly try to make yourself known to hierarchy above your manager. I am currently going to school which should help the moves to a better position. VPs may well number in the hundreds at a huge place . After I became a lead & manager, I was given a team in turmoil after a re-org and straightened that out. I've seen some extremely senior developers propose solutions to problems, but be totally unconvincing. "Your Recently Promoted L63 Peers"? It would be the pinnacle of dumbness. And don't beleive your boss if they say otherwise. Stop thinking of your Mgr as your adversary and listen to what they are telling you. I give you the example from http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/awaits "A busy day awaits" as evidence.So one legitimate missing punctuation mark, one matter of verbal interpretation, one popular idiom, and one completely correct phrase. Then perhaps you're stuck at L62. my recommendation is you take the offer if you've gone this far. "a HR manager" is acceptable if HR is meant to convey a spoken "a human resources manager" rather than a spoken "an aich arr manager".haven't should have an apostrophe, yes. They just plain resonate. And we have the budget for it. Don't do this point blank and for no apparent reason, but your manager has to be aware that at all times you're working towards your next promo, be aware of your results, be aware of the things you need to do to get there, and make YOU and HIS MANAGER aware of those things. Former is work of many years and long nights and proven track record while later is basically your ability to bullshit through 6 interviews. (Senior Project Manager), with 63 (Senior Project Manager) level earning average salary of $247k along with $38k worth of stock options. I'm a level 66 dev (architect). I used to work in the OneCare team. Show me you can do this and want to learn more and you'll be on my radar as a possibility.6. Thanks for keeping this focused. So a sub role at L61 = corp L63 and vice versa.So from a sub perspective:L58 and below are relatively junior roles where you have zero influence outside of meeting your commitmentsL59 -> L60 is a tougher jump. Whenever his lead would ask him to do X he would refuse and insist on doing Y instead. They didn't want to plateau, but that is just where they were given MS talent pool. > Lots of very true points. The money losing groups hires. There is a comment about reporting to someone who is the same level as you are. I have seen people turn it around. Let's Hear it for the Boy! If you're saying "Ah, dude, my boss is in the way of my promotion" then all I have to say is "Duuuude, your boss is the way to your promotion." If you want the longest Microsoft career possible, why advance any faster than you have to. great post mini. A) What is the market facing title for L66 and above levels at Microsoft?B) What is the equivalent at Microsoft of Amazon L7?C) Rank the below titles at Microsoft in decreasing order of seniority: e.gPrincipal > Senior Director > Director > Senior Manager > Partner, Go to company page It was then that things ground to a halt. There are 12 Directors in my sub and over 1000 people all scoping to one day be a Lvl 63reality, most people will leave before they get that far. Here are my thoughts on the Level 62 to Level 63 transition in the product groups: 1. Some are exceptional at one, and passable at others. There is only one item in this list: visibility. weeks to find another position within the company, otherwise they are laid off.Think that's known as a "RIF" not a "layoff" butwhat do I know? Mine is inside sales Azure. you need to hit the pause button for one big time-out regarding where you are, where you're going, and what needs to change. Anyone moved from Office to some other part of company? Senior-level employees have the most decision-making power at a company and are meant to provide leadership and guidance to employees with less seniority. Add your salary anonymously in less than 60 seconds and continue exploring all the data. Thankfully, those are relatively uncommon. Repeat. For technical and management track, the job level start from 57 and continues till 80. What does that look like in your mind? Is this a normal situation and should I not be worried?MCS has different pressures regarding levels. I think there's only one thing I would add, from the perspective of having been promoted from L59 to L64 in a 6-year period in one org (I left MS in 2006).Sometimes things within an org will turn to complete crap, and either there's not an option to leave or you may not want to. And the place where MS has the most non-contributing overheads is Redmond. * Leaving the company - oh, the all too easy escape: I have seen that mentioned in quite a few comments. Healthcare is the most common skill found on a senior director resume. Your manager has to know that either you get promoted sometime soon or you will go and get promoted somewhere else. The L64 guys should be able to influence their skip level orgs plus one or two groups outside of the skip org. It's usually too late at that point. Some are good at all. This is the first year I have spent more than 2 years at a level (L61) and still not gotten a promotion. Senior->principal->partner are the level bands, 63/64->65/66/67, 68/69/70. I think your comments on level 63 were interesting. Now read over your answer. We've negotiated thousands of offers and regularly achieve $30k+ (sometimes $300k+) increases. Discussion: First off, I'm going to be hard-core about comments here. Your commitments should already provide you with milestones to set as your goals. Folks, Im really encouraged by this post and the focus on trying to help make others great. Ah, dude, my boss is in the way of my promotion. This is a problem, at least up to level 65. I haven't seen one single person getting hired below L63 in my group during last year. Is there much motivation to really fix Vista's perception problems?Machiavelli might note that intentionally leaving Vista's reputation in the toilet will make Windows 7 look all that much better when it comes out - allowing some of our VP's pride, ego's and bank balances to swell to truly epic proportions. :). During that time I had two good to great managers. Any idea on when is this going to change? Managers plan out promotion timeframes far in advance. Then I would get emails rating my abilities in these areas that I had no input into it and any replies rebutting it would go unanswered. But power plays are at work and I get smacked when I try and take on extra work.So my question to the more experienced is this - how does one get the attention of management when they are focused on their own problems, their favorite underlings (of which I am not one), and when there is not enough work to go around? The conclusion: its price today! Learn how this feature works. Joined MCS at level 60 and was immediately told that L61 would be years away. I know there is always new hope that comes with new leadership, but there is also a restart too. 63's and 64's own a huge piece of getting the RIGHT work done CORRECTLY. So all you're telling me is I can't count on you so why should I? That figures. In particular I am at 64 for quite some time. (1) Oh, please. As HR Director, Claire helps drive the outstanding business impact, cultural transformation, and growth of Microsoft in the UK. I have only required two strategies. Title doesn't matter, that's a job description. Or - are they going to take the easy path and sack people in Europe and Asia? Be prepared for every possible question, scenario, disaster, etc. Heck, we would be lucky if many can do even that well. You might have the Microsoft Senior Career Stage Profile in front of you all marked up and broken into more sections in OneNote, but which ones matter most to your team? There may be multiple reasons for pay differences - one of which is a small number of salaries submitted per job. What if you and your manager are at the same level L62. Don't let HR lie to you, this is a stack rank exercise. > What if you and your manager are at the same level L62. Thus promotions are easy to L62 - if you don't make 62 quickly, there is something wrong. Satya Nadella. There certainly doesn't seem to be any shortage of people wanting in. I am not saying the manager is trying to sabotage, but when push comes to shove will you get the impactful project. While I was pleased with the attention, I was also rather upset. Mgmt, MSFT levels: CEO > VP > Partner(Director) > Principal > Sr. Eng > Eng 2 > Eng 1. Thanks to Mini for the great information. How do you make sure you do a good job but not too good of a job.Also higher levels will tend to require you to do things you may not like. They took credit for work done by others (#2 helps).Seriously, they only way to separate the wheat from the chaff in this company is to allow to interview without notifying the manager. This past year I had what I thought was an outstanding year, was given a 20%, but not promoted to L63. for people, who might claim that they do all this and still cant progress.. dude, either you are in wrong group or you have not introspected / taken feedback well or you are missing the whole thing by a mile. He won't answer your questions on what is going on or you get vague answers.All of this in most cases is probably directives from HR. Please help. I was an asshole, but I was better than my peers at getting shit done -- I was a PM in DevDiv at the time. At this point many people will ask how can I influence others if Im not their manager? Full stop. That's awesome. Your lead. By persist, I do not mean being happy to be at the same <63 level for 3+ years for exmaple. They are trying to get attention from upper levels more harder then you. Should I trust my manager or is this just one more of his demonstrations of poor management skills? The team that gave me the Dev Lead title made a bet on me, and they were not disappointed, since I worked hard to prove myself at that title (despite having to wait a little longer for a level promotion). Step outside of your comfort zone, own PM, own QA, become great at what you do, and do what you love - and the promo will come. I would get vague directives like you need to be the thought leader or you need to improve your system knowledge. And do you anticipate what happened when I made the next move to Dev Manager position? But, if you have the possibility of finding a position that you will really enjoy, where your goals and those of Microsoft are fairly close, then your long-term potential will be higher. L63 is very much an important milestone, and in tough-hiring times like these the following question has never been more important: "Will <
